Thursday, November 4, 2004

I live in the USA. In the recent re-election Pres. Bush won. The European reaction in the press here is, we conservative Americans are so out of touch with the rest of the world, and Pres. Bush not so smart.(I wouldn't play poker with him). But, we tend to see the Europeans as appeasers to terrorism, multiculturalism, political correctness, your elected officials too liberal, your core values overtaken by moronic idiology. Where's the European countries nationalistic pride? We do not want to be what Europe has become. Peace through strength seems a better option for the future of American or Western culture. Immigrants should assimilate into the scociety. If someone moves here, they better be an American first and Muslim or whatever second. That's the way its gotta be. I wish you luck. Stand up for your freedom, dutch culture. Vote the liberals out of office. Liberalism is the easy road. But it'll be the end of Europe as a major player. We call you the Euroweenies. Sorry. But that's the way it appears at this end of the pond. Fight for your future generations.

D Boer (ip:152.163.100.6) 4 November 2004 - 3:39 uur

Hi,

I live in Canada. I am an Iranian girl. I was horrified at the news of the killing. You know it is only going to get worst unless you stop it now. The Dutch government and Dutch people have to do something big and fast. I don't care if you have to deport every single suspecious person. You do it. Over 329 Iranians have been killed so far in Europe for speaking out either against Islam or against Iran's Islamic government. Shapour Bakhtiar in France, Kourosh Aryamanesh in Germany, Fereydoon Farokhzad in Germany, Bijan Fazeli in London, five Kurdish leaders in Berlin, and many many others. Some have been killed in America too. I know an Iranian named Tabatabai was killed in the U. S. by a black convert to Islam. Tabatabai fled to America after the revolution and was loyal to the Shah and had spoken out against Khomeini a few times. All of those Iranians killed were from Muslim backgrounds. Iranians came to Europe to escape being killed by Islamists in Iran after the revolution. So please stop them now. If you don't stop them now they will get bolder and bolder. Then were are we going to go? I came to Canada but I don't feel safe even here. If they kill people in Amersterdam, why not here in Canada? They have taken over my country. They already had all the neighbouring countries. Now they are taking over Europe too. They will do it more often and in more places and will kill more people. You have to stop them now. I beg you as an Iranian. Don't talk of defeat and don't even think about coming to the U. S. You have to nib it in the bud. Where is your nationalist pride? Stay there and save your country. We Iranians had no chance of saving our country. Islamists have controlled our country for the past 1400 years. But you can stop it over there in Europe. In the heart of Netherland. Suppose you came to the U. S. in order to escape the Islamists in Europe. Then what? You don't think they will try to take over the U. S. after they have taken over Europe (which is will happen if all the sane Dutch people left for the U. S. and left the Islamists and the leftists together). They will do it in Canada too. They are sick. Here is a link of a conversation I had with someone I suspect is a hezbollahi fanatic. Although after talking to him a bit I don't suspect it. I know he is a crazy Islamist fascist. It tells you how these people think.

http://www.activistchat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4430&highlight=

Also is the movie translated to English? I want to see it. I don't understand Dutch. Can you put information on how to see an Engish DVD version on your blog?

Azadeh (ip:149.99.229.163) 4 November 2004 - 5:49 uur

Why do 28% of Dutch want to leave their country? That is an amazingly high number. Is it because of the murder? Is the Netherlands a country falling apart?

You have a great blog and I've added it to my blogroll. Keep up the good work.

Thomas Galvin (ip:69.201.156.183) 4 November 2004 - 8:46 uur

@ D Boer: It's true many Europeans don't understand crap about America. Then again, that probably works the other way around too. I for one endorsed president Bush on this blog. I don't vote for liberals (I vote for the Liberal Party which is not liberal in the American sense, but libertarian-conservative). @ Thomas: I think many people have been angry, frustrated and/or afraid for a long time. They finally get a chance to vent it now. Please bear in mind that my initial response was a heavily emotional one. But it is true I have been thinking for many years about migrating to the USA (even before 9/11), since freedom of speech is taken much more seriously there. Pim Fortuyn, before he was shot on the 6th of May 2002, had been marginalized by the 'intellectual elite' of this country as an 'indecent', even subhuman, person for adressing the issue of radical Islam. It's all very nice to talk about national pride and other stuff, but that's not the issue here. Political correctness in this country makes it very hard to have a good public debate, and thus to solve major problems. To summarize: I have long been in doubt if this country is a free enough place for me to want to start a family in. I hope this murder makes things change.

Arjan (ip:82.161.93.35) 4 November 2004 - 9:26 uur

Please stay in your own country and fix your own problems. I don't want to have to send my kids to Europe in a few years to save you guys once again.

You can run to the US and we will probably take you, but don't do it thinking that we will protect you, that this will solve your problem. I have enough problems with all the Euro Expats now and their constant weak limp wristed, anti gun, anti-heartland america, pro socialist blather. Telling me how great it is in their home country is all the time, I ask them why they arn't there then, money, can't make any money, can't start companies, taxes are two high. Yet they want it like there, here. Go figure.

mike (ip:64.40.175.3) 4 November 2004 - 19:34 uur

Mike, you're rude. I try to keep this blog reasonably civilized. Someone got killed in this country exercising a rather fundamental right that our government has long ignored. I am using this story to express the desire amongst many of us to live in a place where those rights are respected, either here or somewhere else. As I remember it, the USA were founded by such people. It's one of the reasons I like to visit your country so much. I don't know what your problem is, but if you need to express it this way, please do it somewhere else, since I've got very little of that famous Dutch tolerance left after this week. Also, I don't need anyone to protect me, I have never taken a cent of welfare, I vote for a free-market right-wing party, and I'm beginning to wonder why I am defending myself to someone who obviously didn't even read what I wrote, and has trouble spelling the word 'too'.

Damn, I need a drink :-)

Arjan (ip:82.161.93.35) 4 November 2004 - 23:10 uur

Arjen: nice and fair response to "mike", and if you really want to come over here, we'd love to have another sensible, hard-working freedom lover. Best of luck.

MPF (ip:64.241.29.196) 4 November 2004 - 23:48 uur

I was lectured in France this year by a Dutchman who could not believe we would re-elect "this stupid man Bush," who persists in striking out against Islamist terrorists wherever they run and hide.

He lives in Amsterdam, with his children, and I hope his blood runs cold now when he walks out onto the street outside his house. It should. Like so many other liberals across the EU he has been living, and preaching away at us, in a fantasy world. The Islamists have arrived to wake him up.

As the message is driven home by this murder and others still to come we will welcome back the Dutch, to the fight they have been trying to ignore.

ZF (ip:213.162.100.221) 4 November 2004 - 0:08 uur

@ZF: you are lucky. You were lectured by this guy only once, I have to live in the same city as he does all year round! ;-) But seriously. I actually rejoiced at the re-election of Bush. And please do try to remember that there is a Dutch contingent in Iraq at this moment, as well as Dutch soldiers in Afghanistan. Not all of us deny there's a war going on. Hell, I bought T-shirts at ProtestWarrior.Com! Many Europeans have a stereotypical view of Americans. This would be a good opportunity not to make the same mistake the other way around. BTW, there's a fair share of liberals in the USA as well (I recently lectured on their downfall in the CBS memo scandal at Leiden University, Dutch lecture notes at www.zachtei.nl/leiden.pdf)

Arjan (ip:82.161.93.35) 4 November 2004 - 0:19 uur

Wow!

Mike, I've met similar people to those you describe, but that's no reason to jump up and down on people posting here. The Dutch people are (mostly) our friends. Yep, Europeans have some
differences with us, but the unity of the West is
vital now. Also, lot's of Europeans who've come to the USA end up losing their gun fear, and high taxin' ways. Crap, most Jews are gun phobic (I am Jewish and I shoot pistol and rifle) and we don't say "no Jews", right?

Arjan, don't leave your country! I'd love to have
you in the USA, but the Netherlands needs its
patriots now. Pim Fortuyn was a Dutch patriot, God bless him, queer and all!

When I visited the Netherlands many years ago as a college kid (to smoke the Nederwiet, of ourse:) I saw a country with great history and heroes. Remember the siege of Leiden dudes!

Those muslims that renounce killing should be allowed to stay. If they do shit like spit on Van Gogh's mural, well, legally, that shouldn't be a problem, but if I were a Dutch cop I'd look the other way if the spitter ended up castrated in the canals. Absolute tolerance is untenable. If you tolerate those determined to destroy you you'll perish. Get Darwinian on those rags. May the best cultures win!

american (ip:192.149.105.50) 4 November 2004 - 4:24 uur

If 28% of every country flees when something bad happens, it just leaves the country easier to be taken over by those doing the threatening. We always need to remember that Chamberlain tried to "flee" from Hitler's advances by turning over Czechloslavokia and as we know now, Hitler was totally prepared to step back and make pleasant if only somebody had stood up to him THEN. By the time somebody stood up to Hitler, he was strong enough to ALMOST take over all of Europe. Also, 9/11 was simply the accumulated ending to a string of small give-ins by American policy that began with President Reagan ordering the Marines to leave Lebanon after 240 plus Marines were killed by a huge truck explosive that drove into the compound. Then came the other big signs that nobody realized was OPEN WAR on us: the 1992 Twin Towers bombing, Khobar Towers bombing, the U.S.S. Cole suicide bombing, African embassy bombings, and others I can't think of right now. It's EASY to try to placate, negotiate, and give dialogue, and it's the diplomatic thing to do. But radical fantatics don't understand diplomatic measures or dialogue. They understand killing, and suppression with threats. While Europe might not like us or like Bush, they will begin to realize that this war is even more dangerous than the Nazi Socialist threat in the 30s because these Muslims are way worse than the Nazis and want to kill anybody else who is not Muslim. That's you, me, yours and mine. Now THAT'S scary (besides being crazy). And, it's either stand straight and shout no now or retreat behind walls and convert to Muslim later and walk with your head down the rest of your life. The fact is that some brave souls always have to take the first steps, and the first steps can be fatal. But, make no mistake about it. These people are more than ready to die trying to kill us. We have to be ready to make sure they die BEFORE they kill us. This really is a global threat to all of us, the 28% and the other 72%! Mr. Van Gogh was a brave man and might be the catalyst Europe needs to jolt them into recognizing the serious threat that is among them NOW. This is such a vast waste, as was the Pim Fortuyn murder.

Sandra C. (ip:68.1.39.133) 4 November 2004 - 7:08 uur

>Admittedly, my first emotional response to the >Van Gogh murder was: "That's it. I'm moving to >the USA."

Huh? I lived in Europe for several years (in the army - Italy and Germany) and a VERY common attitude was that murders are more or less non-stop in the US. I didn't argue, I just wrote them off as thinking Capone was still running Chicago or something (tho even then murder was only a problem if you were in competition with the other booze makers).

So given that, why would you want to move to the US? (Or maybe you've lived here and know better?)

jay (ip:24.255.3.9) 4 November 2004 - 7:51 uur

Arjan,

I appreciate your point about the Dutch troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. There obviously aren't as many as American or British troops, but that doesn't make their commitment and the danger they face any less.

It's a shame that it takes terrible events to wake us up to realities. The murders of Fortuyn and Van Gogh are awful, but if your country can take serious steps to truly address the issues, you may be able to forestall crimes like New York and Madrid and Beslan. And you can do it in a way that doesn't compromise your core beliefs.

Good luck to you and your country. And if it ever gets intolerable, you're welcome to come to America.

Steve in Houston (ip:161.114.1.183) 4 November 2004 - 8:05 uur

@American: OK, I think my statements have been taken a bit too seriously. As I said, it was my first *emotional* response. If someone smashes in a window of your car, you might say: 'I'm going to kill that guy.' You probably wouldn't (depending of course whether or not you really love your car ;-)). @Jay: I visit the USA quite often and I really like to be there. (I actually like Americans, but I should be careful to say that, as it is a capital offense for a European. You get burned to death on a stake of marhsmallows. No, just kidding.) Despite all that, I have long thought about moving (perhaps temporarily) to the USA. This has nothing to do with the whole Van Gogh thing, it's been a possibility for several years. Since I am a technology journalist / columnist / professor of journalism, there are several opportunities for me in and around the SFO Bay Area. Also, you get to surf and drink wheat grass juice there ;-)

Arjan (ip:82.161.93.35) 4 November 2004 - 11:16 uur

Anyone "rejoicing" at the election of Bush in the U.S. is ignorant of just how corrupt and incompetent and deceptive he is.

PaulB (ip:66.68.41.191) 4 November 2004 - 22:23 uur

PaulB: Please exhibit a little more "Dutch tolerance." Calling everyone who disagrees with your narrow viewpoint "ignorant" destroys your ability to persuade.

Arjan: Excellent posts and a great thread. We in America mourn with your countrymen over the murders and terror taking place right now. We also welcome all of you into the fight against these monsters (and thanks for the helps you have given thus far).

All of humanity needs to draw a line in the sand and say "no more." We are overjoyed at the growing number of Muslims who want to fight the terrorists and fundamentalists (they are now doing great work in Iraq, Afghanistan and the universities of Iran). We are glad that more Europeans are seeing the need to fight these extremists. Let's get it done now, so our children and grandchildren won't have to do it for us.

inkling (ip:68.3.58.47) 4 November 2004 - 23:06 uur

I just wanted to point at the ironic fact that Theo van Gogh, who strongly supported the war in Iraq and the war on terror, also had thought about moving to the US. Had he only done it in time...

And by the way: for those Americans following this horrible case, but who are not familiar with Van Gogh's work and persona, I think you can best imagine him as a libertarian Michael Moore,making feature films instead of documentaries (he really kinda looked like Moore as well)

Dutchie in an Atlanta Starbucks (ip:208.54.95.129) 4 November 2004 - 0:17 uur

I would like to begin by saying that as an American I hope that the Dutch people will realize the true threat that these radical islamicists present in their society. They really do want nothing more than to make sure that western civilization ceases to exist. These people are not "freedom fighters" as some European and American media want to portray them. Please take them seriously!

It does seem odd to me about the hatred that comes from the European media towards our re-election of President Bush. It is his duty to protect his people, just as I hope your leaders will protect you in this war on terror. We should be fighting this together.

Now that President Bush has won, the media are now going after Americans in general as being stupid, religious zealots. Why?
I voted for Bush and am a Christian, but I want the government to stay out of religion and visa versa. I want my family to live in peace and pursue our lives as free men and women, with hatred towards none. Why are Christians in the US treated with such disdain from people in Europe? I don't undertand it.

I think you have a beautiful country and culture and hope that you take measures to remain free and strong.

Do not under-estimate the enemy that is lining up to kill you and all you hold dear.

robert (ip:65.32.185.229) 4 November 2004 - 0:20 uur

@Dutchie: for all of you who want to see some of Mr. Van Gogh's work: one of the movies that got him killed, in a sense, can be downloaded from http://kiwi.hlm.cyberhq.nl/mirror/submission/ In the end, I think Mr. Van Gogh loved this country for all its flaws. I suppose there are worse ways to die than fighting for your country, which in a way he did (see my newly posted essay at http://www.zachtei.nl/2004/11/06/000446.html ). Nevertheless, I'll miss him.

Arjan (ip:82.161.93.35) 4 November 2004 - 0:26 uur

Sandra C,

"Also, 9/11 was simply the accumulated ending to a string of small give-ins by American policy that began with President Reagan ordering the Marines to leave Lebanon after 240 plus Marines were killed by a huge truck explosive that drove into the compound."

It didn't start them. It started when Khomeini took over Iran and Carter let him do it. Even thought he could be an ally. History would have been very different if Carter had some pride and common sense.

lindenen (ip:24.125.131.240) 4 November 2004 - 0:33 uur

Arjan, I think your response to Mike was worse than his comment, which was surely more temperate than v. Gogh's typical output. This is a matter of free speech: do you support it or not? Mike was not impolite in pointing out that a typical NL ends up far to the left here in the USA and it would be better if they fought their battles at home instead of abandoning their county (and, yes, their mess) and emigrating.

Kurt (ip:24.61.140.46) 4 November 2004 - 1:37 uur

@Kurt: A shame you feel the need to get ad hominem. First, you're taking this way too seriously. It was an *emotional* response, as I'm now stating for the third time. Second, Mike was debating with me, not Van Gogh. Third, I never told Mike he couldn't say something and his comments are still here for everyone to read. Fourth, I politely requested (not: told!) he'd go somewhere else (not: stop talking altogether) if he wishes to remain rude, which I still feel he was. However, pointing that out and requesting him to do it somewhere else are part of my freedom of speech, and I think it's rather sad that you attempt this blow below the belt, considering what happened here. As for 'far to the left' and 'abandoning their count(r?)y', can I assume you haven't read the part about me endorsing Bush, as well as the part of having been planning to move to California for several years now, long before this stuff started?

Arjan (ip:82.161.93.35) 4 November 2004 - 1:53 uur

Thank you, Arjan, for finding a middle ground to let discussion occur in these difficult, polarized days. I am always amazed when my biased ears hear such clear "American" accents from so many Dutch people when they speak English, and envy them (along with Scandinavians) for having a secure private language as well. So we can expect a Dutchman to think about HOW to communicate across this Euro-US chasm in a better way.
To echo the young Iranian woman in Canada, one step we can take very quickly is getting this fallen man's films translated into English and Arabic at they very least, and into broader circulation. It honors both the man and the society that nurtured him, and it furthers the knowledge about these problem. A similar-sounding documentary about Afghanistan was widely shown on CNN in the US after 9/11 and was similarly helpful.

glenlyon (ip:66.245.16.53) 4 November 2004 - 15:21 uur

So three out of ten Dutch citizens feel the need to flee their homeland rather than fight to take back what is theirs. How did it get to this Arjan?

If it's true that you support Bush then you should do what Bush is doing, stand up and fight. A good way to start would be to proclaim to the world that you were wrong, that the permissive society is an experiment gone horribly wrong. Say that the leftists are either wolves in sheeps clothing or dangerously deluded, that their idea of unfettered immigration is suicidal, that multiculture is really Frankenculture. Say these things loudly and pubicly. Saying you were wrong is good for the soul and is the first step to confronting your problems.

Don't move to the US, especially don't move to California. There you'll fall into the California trap where a lot of people think that we should be more like the country you're running away from. You'll be a bit of a celebrity there and soon you'll be lamenting the fact that you can't buy hash' in coffee houses and that it's silly for people in a civilized society to think that child pornography is anything but harmless.

In short, I agree with Mike an Kurt. Stay where you are, you've soiled your nest now clean it up. Calling Mike and Kurt rude and saying 'shame' is just a flimsy facade for not wanting to confront your responsibilities.

We need you in Holland Arjan, not here. Good luck.

Arty (ip:209.89.39.119) 4 November 2004 - 15:24 uur

Sorry, I already see that I was three minutes too early in posting! I'll have to let the Dutch readers use their intellects to figure out that Arty and I come from darn similar places in the political spectrum in the US, though you'd never realize it from a quick read. You'll have to chalk it up to that freedom of speech you refer to elsewhere in this intersting blogsite.

Just to be clear, Americans THANK the other states that have put their support into Iraq, which ALREADY INCLUDES these Dutch folks, Arty. The poll respondent's wish to "leave" the Netherlands is no more serious than Kerry folks wishing to move to Canada. See all of this as an expression of solidarity that we desperately need these days to see in Europe, though I am sorry a man is dead as a result.

glenlyon (ip:66.245.16.53) 4 November 2004 - 15:48 uur

@Arty: Don't lecture me on my responsibilities. Standing up and fight - with words, not weapons (besides, the Dutch army wouldn't have me on medical grounds, so I won't be joining our troops in Iraq or Afghanistan anytime soon) - is exactly what this blog is doing. My address can be easily found on this website as well as through WHOIS. If I were a coward, I wouldn't be openly voicing my criticism of radical Islamism when a murder has happened only a few kilometres from my house. However, several Dutch tv stations have been scared out of showing the Van Gogh film Submission again. (It can be found on this website, though, at http://www.zachtei.nl/2004/11/06/000443.html) That's why, if I ever were to leave, it would be exactly *because* so few people want to fight. My long-standing anger about the lethargy in this country prompted my initial - I'll repeat it again - *emotional* response. The murder of Van Gogh was IMHO a direct result of this apathy. An apathy I wasn't a part of, I work for a weekly that has for years warned things like these might happen. I (very superficially) knew Mr. Pim Fortuyn, who got murdered a few years ago for a similar reason as Mr. Van Gogh, because he wrote for the same weekly. Fighting for one's people is all well, but for that you need a people to fight for. I hope my fellow Dutch prove me right in still having some optimism things can be turned around. If not, I'll eventually draw my conclusions, as many ancestors of current Americans have done in their days. Or did I miss something and is everyone in the USA a descendant from a native American?

Arjan (ip:82.161.93.35) 4 November 2004 - 16:05 uur

@Glenlyon: Indeed, I'd never tell. I just saw a post from Arty (at least, the same IP number) at http://www.zachtei.nl/2004/11/07/000450.html. It's a good thing I'm a tolerant Dutch guy ;-)

Arjan (ip:82.161.93.35) 4 November 2004 - 16:22 uur

Arjan, I've been living in the US for over 4 years. I haven't been back to Holland since May of 2001.

All I can say is: sign up for the Diversity Visa Lottery (WWW.DVLOTTERY.STATE.GOV) to get a Green Card, and come over here.

America, f*ck yeah!

Alex (ip:129.252.75.210) 4 November 2004 - 18:48 uur

I think the most important thing is the reaction to the events. If you let radicals from either the right or left use this to push an agenda then it an only increase the problems. Moderates in this world need to continue to communicate with each other. I'm an American and it's difficult to see the polarization in my country. That could well be your future if you don't keep the far left and right in check. Make sure you don't lose the identity that you want to have.

In America we say, "We just want America to be as good as its promise." I'm sure that there must be a similar proverb in Dutch. Whatever you do, don't lose site of it.

Eric (ip:168.103.152.74) 4 November 2004 - 11:27 uur

As the American-born grandson of immigrants fleeing religious intolerance, I welcome any and all Europeans who wish for a better life in a truly multicultural and tolerant society.

Don't believe the nonsense you hear from the European anti-american echo chamber. America is a wonderful place for anyone of any race or creed who wishes to raise a family, launch a business, build a community and pursue his or her dreams. Crime in the big cities has fallen by more than half during the last decade. Real incomes for anyone with a college degree have soared, and living costs for everyone have plunged. Almost every aspect of daily life in America-- from environmental quality to school performance to traffic safety to the richness and diversity of cultural and entertainment, even culinary, offerings-- has improved greatly since I was a child growing up during the 1970s. Anyone willing to work hard can have a great life in a fast-growing and spectacularly beautiful place like Colorado or North Carolina, New Hampshire, Arizona, Virginia, the Texas Hill Country and many other places.

Come on over! Strivers of all faiths and colors are welcome. The more the better.

lex (ip:206.208.228.251) 4 November 2004 - 18:26 uur

Arjan:

Much sympathy to you and your country for the heinous act perpetrated by that subhuman filth in your town recently. The act of murdering someone who had the temerity to voice an opinion that tangentially might malign Islam is animated by the same psychosis that brought the world 9/11. Good luck in the fight against the barbarians (meant in every sense of the word) at the gate that your country is only just now recognizing. Gotta say my money's on you guys- the scariest airport security I've seen by far is at Schiphol.... the guess is when y'all are worked up, you're formidable.

And if you want to come over, do so. Part of being a true Yankee is not giving a rat's behind what anybody else says, so if you wanna emigrate here, ignore everybody's opinion and do it. Judging from your blog, you're smart enough to do just fine. Chances are you'll end up in my town (Chicago), which surprisingly has a massive Netherlander (Nederlander?) presence- just got finished working a contract at a Dutch bank downtown.

Off topic- Interesting "analysis" coming out of euroland about our recent elections. Apparently due to the "original sin" (at least according to the secular orthodoxy in Europe) of supporting Bush, I'm a half witted, no passport ownin', gay bashin' rascist that sleeps with my multiple guns at night, waking up now and again to mouth out some scripture from my everpresent bible. Never mind that I own no guns, am in a mixed raced marriage, have only been to church in the last decade for weddings and funerals, have studied and worked in Europe, Asia and South America and am a Mensa member. Sorry, this is all so confusing- who again are the close minded provincials in this scenario again?

Whew.... enough blather. Great blog, keep up the good work.

2BrixShy (ip:67.103.1.75) 4 November 2004 - 22:39 uur

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