Doorbakken kan altijd nog
Saturday, November 6, 2004
Thank you for this excellent window on what's happening in Europe. It's now on my favorite file. And your English is flawless.
chas (ip:184.108.40.206) 6 November 2004 - 16:23 uur
You have a great website here and your English is excellent. I ran across it while looking at www.andrewsullivan.com which is an american blog. I am Dutch and have been living in the United States for fourteen years. I am no fan of George W. (there's a lot that scares me about him)but he does realize we are dealing with terrorists with an ideology of hate and death and not some disenfranchised group that needs to be understood. I hope that the murder on Van Gogh will lead to introspection on what the world is up against.
Keep up the good work.
Josie (ip:220.127.116.11) 6 November 2004 - 16:41 uur
Van Gogh was not the first and he will not be the last to die at the hands of these thugs. Behold the fruits of multiculturalism, an ideology that is not really multicultural, just anti Christian and anti West. It basically says Western civilization is bad and everybody else is not only good, but cannot be objectively anaylzed or criticized. Muslims are not and never were tolerant, in the sense Western countries use.
People of Holland wake up and speak out. All you have to do is be honest. Tell the Muslims they need to change. Tell them their attitudes and their religion has to change, and most of all, made them responsible for what other Muslims do.
I want to make it very clear that violence is NOT acceptable. Muslims should have the same rights as all people, no more and no less. They should also be made to respect our laws. All you have to do when talking to Muslims or when in a public meeting about Islam is to make it clear that as long as Muslims discriminate and oppress people in countries where they dominate, they are a bunch of dishonest hypocrites and they deserve absolutely no respect. Period. If the people do that, and demand that their leaders speak up about this, then things will improve for all - even for Muslims. Just because Muslims live a lie doesn't mean we have to accept it. We must demand that Muslims -- particularly those in the West -- be responsible for all actions everywhere done in the name of Islam.
Personaly, I am very dubious about the integrity of Muslims in the West, in the sense I don't see a real committment for equality and democracy, only excuses and a willingness to blame others. I have a feeling that if Muslims were a majority in any Western country, it would not be a pretty picture. One thing is for sure, Muslims want to be known as peaceful and tolerant, they just don't want to actually have to be peaceful and tolerant.
So, take your Political Correctness and shove it up Big Mo's rear end (excuse the crude talk)
John Edwards (ip:18.104.22.168) 6 November 2004 - 20:56 uur
Very interesting! I've added this site to my reading list.
If you'll forgive me for offering an observation, we have intolerant folks in the US, too. David Duke and Louis Farakhan spring to mind. The danger in Holland is not that people like these might like to burn a cross on someone's lawn, or, a tire around someone's neck. The danger is when the REST of the folks in a country like Holland, or the US, would sit around, navel-gazing, after such an event. Recall that a few years ago some racists in the US draggged a black man to a horrid death. The people of the US hunted them down and locked them up. BUT, they also, as a people, repudiated, long ago, any notion that such acts were to be tolerated.
Right now, Holland is wondering what they should do about the bigots they've invited to the hearth. That says a lot about how little thought has been given to a serious problem in Holland.
If the Dutch people distort a rational tolerance into a irrational blindspot of 360 degrees, they will create an deadly tumor in their civilized social body. Having created for themselves a society noted for their tolerance, they allowed themselves to be shamed out of any pride for the marvel they had wrought.
What would be wrong with expecting immigrants to accept, totally, the main ideas that make their country desirable, to learn to be Dutch? Too nationalistic? A lot of folks in Europe believe nationalism to be a dirty word. It's one of the things they despise about Americans, their love of country, their pride in just being from America.
Well, you Dutch have been put on the spot now. You have to choose between two ideas that conflict, the desire for tolerance and the lack of tolerance for self-pride. You see, I think you SHOULD demand that immigrants assimilate. A free society can tolerate many alien customs, but, not customs that require that they stop being a free society.
Hope I have not injured anyone's sensibilities. If I have, feel free to tune me out. After all, it's a free country!
Thomas Hazlewood (ip:22.214.171.124) 6 November 2004 - 11:30 uur
@Thomas: actually, that's one of the best analyses of our current situation I've heard. Thank you for your insights.
Arjan (ip:126.96.36.199) 6 November 2004 - 11:35 uur
Arjan, Thank you for the opportunity to speak.
2nd, We have a religious group in the US called the Amish. Very fundamental. They frown upon garish dress and tone of voice. They pride themselves upon dressing and acting 'plain'. That sounds very like the Dutch aversion to thrusting Dutch customs of tolerance upon immigrants. Wouldn't be 'plain'. Wouldn't it be interesting to suppose that a basically secular people's adherence to tolerance might have evolved from a religious, fundamentalist characteristic?
Just random thought I had..Regards!
Thomas Hazlewood (ip:188.8.131.52) 6 November 2004 - 12:03 uur
@Thomas, sorry for the lack of paragraphs. I'm still working on it. Until recently, this website got > 600 unique visitors a day but none of them ever used the comments :-). Now, the number of visitors has nearly tenfolded. What's more, people actually have started to comment so I am finding out about all sorts of quirks in this website that were never really an issue. As for your remarks about the Amish, that's an interesting association. The Amish, as I understand it, are related to the Mennonites, named after the Dutch priest Menno Simons.
Arjan (ip:184.108.40.206) 6 November 2004 - 12:13 uur
I Googled these bits after you amazed me by mentioning the Mennonite origins. That's what I love about the internet.... you meet people smarter than yourself. lol! Also, I realize this is now off-topic, but, I guess we're just chatting a bit. Regards!
The Amish, called "The Plain People" or Old Order Amish, originated in Switzerland about l525. They came from a division of the Mennonites or Anabaptists (Re-baptizers). They opposed the union of church and state and infant baptism. They baptized people only as adults at about age l8. Adult baptism was a crime in the l6th century. Therefore, the Amish come from an impressive list of martyrs. They were put in sacks and thrown into rivers in Europe. There are no Amish left in Europe; The Amish were saved from extinction by William Penn who granted a haven from religious persecution in America. Since early colonial days the Amish have lived in the United States preserving their distinctive culture, dress, language and religion in peace and prosperity.
The Amish movement was founded in Europe by Jacob Amman (~1644 to ~1720 CE), from whom their name is derived. In many ways, it started as a reform group within the Mennonite movement -- an attempt to restore some of the early practices of the Mennonites.
The beliefs and practices of the Amish were based on the writings of the founder of the Mennonite faith, Menno Simons (1496-1561), and on the 1632 Mennonite Dordrecht Confession of Faith. The Amish who split from Mennonites generally lived in Switzerland and in the southern Rhine river region. During the late 17th century, they separated because of what they per
Thomas Hazlewood (ip:220.127.116.11) 6 November 2004 - 12:36 uur